Transcript for Cutting Through podcast Season 2 Episode 1

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Jonathan Holt   This is Cutting Through the podcast for digital communicators and welcome to season two. Bowen Craggs recently published our annual snapshot of the key trends in corporate digital communications and this has been a snapshot unlike any other for the simple reason that these are times unlike any that have come before. Most people know that AI is rewriting the rules of communicating but what that actually means has been a bit murky up until now. In the snapshot, we've mapped out some answers as we see them. And that's what we're going to talk about in this episode of Cutting Through.

Joining me in the virtual podcasting studio are Scott Payton, Chief Executive at Bowen Craggs and Georgia Barrett, Vice President USA. Scott and Georgia, welcome back. It's been a few months, but in many ways, it feels like we're in a whole other world compared to where we were back in June when we signed off for the seasonal break. AI has come on quite a bit in terms of our understanding about it, our clients understanding of what it means and what it enables. Do you think it's accurate and not hyperbolic to say that Corporate Digital Communications is entering a new epoch?

Scott Payton   Hi Jonathan, hi Georgia, and it's lovely to be back. We took a summer break and I think we stretched the definition of summer to its maximum, because it's now nearly Christmas, but it's great to be back. I genuinely do think, and I think this more than ever before, that online corporate communications is undergoing right now the biggest and quickest and most profound transformation since at any other time since the birth of the web at least. I genuinely think that.

And actually I think what right now really reminds me of is back in 2006, so almost exactly 20 years ago, Google launched Google News. And when Google launched Google News, there were lots of articles written about the fact that the BBC is dead, the CNN is dead, the New York Times is dead, because if people can get their news from Google, why are they going to go to news publishers' websites? But what happened was then CNN and the New York Times and the BBC and other news publishers, they evolved their websites, their own online presences, to provide a news, an immersive multimedia rich news experience that gave people something above and beyond what Google News provided.

And I think right now we're seeing a really, really similar thing in online corporate communications. We are seeing the way people get information about companies and everything else transforming. You can ask ChatGPT how many people does Sanofi employ, and that kind of thing, and you'll get an answer from the chatbot. So you won't necessarily need to go to a corporate website for those answers, but you will continue to want to go to a corporate website to get a really rich, immersive experience of what life is really like inside that company. I think the role of the corporate website is transforming. And that change is profound. But I absolutely do think that the naysayers are wrong, that it's not the death of the corporate website, for example, it's the dawn of a new transformative age of the corporate website and other online channels.

Georgia Barrett   I think absolutely. I think as Scott was saying, AI search is just fundamentally changing the way people find out information. And this has a huge implication for your own content on your website, on your social media channels. And I think what we're seeing more and more of is that if you don't tell your story, then someone else will. So I think that means, yeah, it's really exciting because this is your chance to tell your story on your corporate digital channels.

And what's really striking for me is this complete 180 from almost a minimalist approach to what you put on your corporate website to a maximalist approach where AI is reading everything, is indexing every page, even if it's buried really deep in the navigation. So we're really seeing that editorial is back, storytelling is back, content is king. Whereas before maybe it was okay to not say anything on a reputational issue. Maybe it would blow over if you stay quiet. That's not really the case anymore. And if you're not speaking out using your online channels, then other sources outside of your control, like Wikipedia, like Reddit, are flooding in to fill that gap. So yeah, the corporate website is the one channel that you can really fully control. So we think you should just go big on it.

Jonathan   Well, you mentioned bots there and in a way bots and crawlers are kind of the star of the show right now. I think we were looking at something that showed that AI, meaning bots and crawlers, to a large extent is possibly the leading candidate to be Time's Person of the Year. And so we've spent a lot of time thinking about what do these AI bots want in relation to corporate information. And of course, everyone, virtually everyone we're talking to is trying to figure out how bots think, what they want. What have we learned about AI bots?

Scott    We've learned loads about AI bots and they do now make up more than half of traffic to a company's website, to corporate websites and other websites. So they are incredibly influential because they are, if you please the AI bots, then that is the key to ensuring that if someone asks ChatGPT or any other chatbot a question about your company, that it's going to be your information that feeds the answer.

What have we learned about them? What they're looking for is the most definitive, authoritative, credible answer to a question. So the key really is, as Georgia said, it's really important to festoon your corporate website sites with rich, detailed, clear, jargon free, credible, detailed information about all topics related to your business, particularly common frequently asked questions about your business.

I think the other really interesting thing that we've learnt about AI bots is there's a huge, very tight correlation between AI search optimisation or AI bot optimisation and accessibility. This is because AI search bots, are hearing impaired and they're sight impaired. So if you make your website easy to read and use and navigate for hearing impaired and sight impaired users, for example, then you're actually going to make it easy to scrape by AI search bots. They hate jargon and they want clarity and evidence.

Georgia   Yeah, they basically want to find clear verifiable facts about the company. They're really looking for long form content. They really like data, proof points, clear language. So yeah, I think it's very interesting that these things are really aligned with what people want and what people have always wanted. So getting GEO right has a lot in common with excelling at just good corporate digital communications in general. So that's been really pleasing to see.

Jonathan   Well, what are we learning about what bots, what AI bots and crawlers are doing, and AI search in general, is doing to web traffic? I mean, what are clients telling you about the percentage of visits that they're seeing that they think are coming from bots rather than human beings, for example?

Scott   Well, it's interesting that there's some evidence that some companies are seeing a reduction in human traffic. But there was a really interesting blog post by Liz Reed, who's vice president of search at Google, over the summer when we were taking our long sabbatical from this podcast. Liz Reed said that according to Google's data, websites that provide unique viewpoints, podcasts, things that, real stories, rich editorial, websites that provide things above and beyond the AI search answer, they're actually kind of seeing an increase in traffic.

So again, this kind of points to just jumping ahead to what's the future of the corporate website in terms of a successful corporate website. It's a website that provides an immersive, rich experience that provides something above and beyond the AI search answer. Which is why I'm slightly obsessed with the Google News and how publishers responded to that analogy because I think there is going to be an impact on traffic.

But on the one hand, someone asks Google, is this company a good place to work? And the AI answer, based on your content, says, yes, it is, then you've kind of — that's a win. A reduction in traffic doesn't automatically mean that it's a bad thing from a corporate communications perspective. But of course you do still continue to want people to visit too. And I think the answer to that is rich, authentic, immersive content.

Georgia   Yeah, I think you're wanting to make the website an interesting, immersive destination in its own right. Because yes, ChatGPT can tell you this company was founded in 1907, but it's only when you click through to the website that you can see the rich footage from the company's history, or you can watch a video of someone doing a day in the life working at the company.

Yes, I think having it as a destination is increasingly important and even if there's a reduction in traffic, which is kind of what we're seeing, there's a bit less quantity but the quality of the visits tends to be higher. So other metrics like impressions, time on page are actually increasing. Yeah, quality over quantity when it comes to who is actually visiting the websites. Those who come are finding the content more valuable.

Scott   Yeah, totally. I think this is the last time I'm going to talk about the Google News analogy, because people will get bored. But I was thinking about this on the way into London today. You don't need to go to the New York Times to find out who won, who's the new mayor of New York. But you do need to go to the New York Times if you want to find out what Thomas Friedman thinks about that, his take on that. Yeah.

And I think it's a kind of similar thing when it comes to ChatGPT, role of the corporate website. You don't need to go to sanofi.com to see who the CEO of Sanofi is, because ChatGPT will tell you that. But if Sanofi gets its corporate website right, people will want to go to sanofi.com to get to know who the get to know the CEO more and to hear from them directly and maybe see them at work. So yeah, I really think there's something in this in terms of learning from recent history about how an industry has evolved in the wake of a kind of a technology transformation.

Jonathan   Well, so we make the case in the snapshot report that websites will and are becoming more experiential for the purposes of making it interesting for human visitors who do find their way to the site and also keeping them there. When you start to look at corporate communications through that lens, you really see things differently. And so there is some legacy content. 

Some companies are already doing this. We can already point to quite a number of examples, not quite a number, because I think it's been somewhat rare for companies to invest in making really immersive, interesting content, but it does exist.

Georgia   Yes. So an example that comes to mind is Unilever. They have had this very immersive interactive palm oil story where you can click on Google Maps, you can really explore it in real time. That has, I think in our minds long been a best practice example of this type of using the web to be interactive.

But I think what is quite interesting on this topic is finding the balance between AI bots that want that long form content and humans with their short attention spans. Again, Unilever is doing this well. And if you go to their sustainability section, they've employed this quite innovative style of a scrolling panel that kind of floats up as you scroll down, much like a social media feed. So very bite sized chunks of information but with links to that deeper detail. So they're balancing those sort of two needs. They're very good at using that inverted pyramid approach of having the most relevant information at the top for the humans and then the deeper detail for those who are interested and also the AI that really wants the deeper detail.

Scott   Yeah, and I think we were talking yesterday with a company that for a long time has had a very rich, a great online magazine. And there was a discussion about, you know, we'll watch the discussion about the fact that that online magazine, that rich content is more important than ever because of AI search. And there was a conversation about what do we do with it, how do we take it from here? And I think the conclusion was to turn it up to 11 to use a tired spinal tap analogy.

But I think it is, you know  for companies that aren't really kind of use aren't used to using rich editorial, now is the time to start. And for companies that are experienced with things like online magazines, it's really kind of... to take them to the next level. And to, through editorial content, as well as facts and figures, ensure that for the topics and the subjects that your company wants to be seen as experts in, ensure that your online presence is the most definitive and most engaging and most informative authority on those topics. And an editorial, storytelling articles, explainers, it's just a great way of doing that.

Jonathan   Well, so in our snapshot report, which we titled, Now Is The Time, Blueprint for the Future of Corporate Digital Communications, we take on a number of different facets of communication, not just AI, and try to lay out a positive roadmap or blueprint that communicators can use to structure their plans and to anticipate what's coming around the bend and to be ready. It's about AI, but it's also about a step change in the way that people think about communications in lots of different ways.

I know you both, and I've joined a little bit along the way, have been out and about presenting the findings of the snapshot report and talking to people. What are you finding is resonating with people and people are being most engaged with?

Scott   "What should corporate communications teams be doing about the rise of ChatGPT and Google AI mode and Perplexity?" "What should we do about this" has been the, you the kind of the most the number one, number two and number three topic of most greatest topic of interest.

What I think is interesting and important is I think what we have been trying to do is work with companies to demystify generative engine optimisation. Even the term generative engine optimisation makes it sound terribly technical and complicated and almost obtusely impenetrable. Whereas actually, as George has alluded to, lot of the secrets to AI search optimisation is very much about... is tightly correlated with good usability. And also it's about, in large part, not entirely, but in large part, a content issue about providing clear, detailed, transparent, jargon-free, well-sourced information. That's one of the keys to, you know, generative engine optimisation.

And it's been great to see, I think, when we've been doing the rounds and having workshops and round tables and one-on-ones with clients, feel like it's been reassuring to companies, it's been reassuring to people in online corporate communications that actually their job, their kind of expertise as the online communications professionals that they are, frequently with an editorial background, they hold the keys and they have the expertise to do this. And there's lots of practical, fairly straightforward things that you can do to succeed at, you know, terribly scary sounding GEO.

Jonathan   Georgia, are you hearing from communicators and clients that you've been talking to around the changes that are afoot?

Scott   That's one of my takeaways.

Georgia   I think it's a similar story. I think the changing search landscape and GEO and all of this that we've been discussing almost gives you permission to address issues head on, on your channels in a way that wasn't, you didn't have that sort of green light to do that. Whereas now you almost have to, because it's coming up in other ways outside of your control. So I think that's been a very interesting topic of conversation.

Also just the way that tools such as ChatGPT are changing visitor expectations. And we're seeing that with internal search engines on corporate websites, they're increasingly using AI and the experience that they're offering is very similar to something like ChatGPT. So kind of just acknowledging that your website shouldn't exist in a vacuum completely separate to what's going on.

Jonathan   Well, I wonder if you both feel that there's been a change in the mood among communicators over the last few months. You know, when we were last together podcasting and talking about these things. There was this kind of all through our first season of the podcast, I think there was an air of uncertainty, of gloom even, I mean, of a fear of anxiety. We talked a lot about crisis, crises. We talked about, know, reputation, unknowns, and also, you know, the specter of AI.

Because as recent as a few months ago, AI seemed like this big scary cloud that was approaching. And people were worried about losing their jobs, had no idea how to approach it in terms of what is it going to do to the website, how do we deal with this. It seems like we're in a different phase, as I alluded to right at the start, but do you agree? Am I reading the right things in the tea leaves?

Scott   I think so. There's a lot of, as I said, a lot of people that working in corporate digital communications department teams in companies. Many of them do have an editorial background and they like creating kind of rich content and telling engaging stories about the people inside their business and the things that the company makes and does and plans. And I think it's very gratifying for them to kind of realise and see that actually the key to the brave new world of AI search optimisation is what they are good at.

And I also think that another thing we have been really trying hard to do is to show clients what good looks like. And just to kind of look at kind of just to harvest as many practical examples and of specific things that companies are doing to improve AI search visibility.

So I feel like it's now from, my goodness, this is this kind of, you know, the kind of terminator view of AI moving towards the kind of, this is actually my role. The corporate website is actually is more strategically important to my business than ever. Let's crack on and change and transform it in order to kind of adapt to the brave new world. So there's more optimism. I think there's no doubt there's lingering uncertainty about what exactly the future looks like in terms of the longer term implications of AI for jobs and things like that. But more optimistic than before, I think.

Georgia   Yeah, and that goes hand in hand with missing a lot of increased CEO interest in the corporate website, a lot of senior scrutiny on corporate channels. And we've had numerous people say that they've worked at their company for over two decades. Never has there been more interest in the website than this exact moment right now.

Jonathan   Well, I was thinking earlier that I have felt, I think a lot of us have felt for years that digital communication should be leapfrogging, coming right out to the front of the line in terms of all communication, especially in a corporate context. And yet that somehow hasn't quite happened, but it almost feels like maybe it is now.

Scott   Yeah, 100%. And I think what we have found, and we've been doing lots of events recently and talking in person and online to lots of clients. What we have found is, know, our area, Bowen Cragg's area, is online corporate communications, which is... that's what we do. And for decades we have had incredibly close relationships with people inside multinational companies that are in charge of the corporate websites and corporate social media channels.

And what we have found in recent weeks, taking the kind of our latest index ranking on the road is actually it's now it's not just the web and social media team in a company that's interested in finding out from us what the state of the world right now when it comes to online communications. It's the entire communications team at local level and globally. Public affairs is interested in it. Government affairs is interested in it.

And I think that is really a reflection of the fact that digital communications, as you say, actually kind of, it's now, it's sort of, it's everything, or it's not everything, but it's, it is very much the kind of the most important and the most powerful and the most consequential aspect of any company's communications activity. Sounds like a terrible humble brag. But it wasn't meant to humble brag, but I think that the subject matter that we focus on is profoundly more important than it ever has been.

Jonathan   I think one humble brag per podcast episode is probably allowed. So our snapshot report is fed into by a lot of different things, including, I guess it's worth pointing out, the podcast. We've done a lot of thinking in order through creating episodes about topics and digging into them and learning. And so, you know, there's a little side tip for people. If you want to know your thoughts, make a podcast about it and you might get somewhere.

But of course, the source for insights into this annual report is the Corporate Digital Communications Index, which is a sort of league table for the best of the best in this area of communication among large corporates. And in recent years, we've tended to downplay the horse race aspect of the index snapshot. Partly because we're constantly updating the index throughout the year. You know, this one once in a year sort of check in is what it is. You know, it's not the be all and end all. But also because the leaders in the index have been pretty stable for a few years.

But we've seen some interesting movements there in the past year or so leading up to this snapshot. One of those, the big one there is that Bosch has leaped up the table and into joint first place. And so I wondered any thoughts on how they did that? Why Bosch is suddenly, well, not suddenly because they've been moving in that direction for a while, but how have they gotten there?

Scott   I think they're not suddenly as important because they have been working extremely hard, ceaselessly, iteratively improving their global online presence for a number of years. And they are not... They have embraced... They are very innovative as a communications team, but they're also very professional.

So they have cracked that difficult... They've done two things really well that are difficult to do well at once, which is to produce a really kind of coherent and consistent and tightly managed global web presence and social media presence across globally and across a complex range of business areas. But they've done so without compromising personality and humanity and fun in some areas, such as their YouTube Chops videos, which are fun.

And yeah, so it's kind of, they are, and they've also really embraced new technology and they're doing some interesting things with AI on their global site. Some really good, the global site is also full of profiles, authentic profiles of their research team. So yeah, but I think governance, tight governance and consistency without compromising personality and humanity. I think by working bloody hard at it month in month out for many years. Well done Bosch.

Jonathan   Well, to be near the top of the index, companies have to be really good at a lot of different things, which is never easy. It requires foresight and a really smart use of resources. And Nestlé have been either in the top or joint first place for several years now because they do do, partly because they do do so many things really well. But do you, do any you have any thoughts on what it is about Nestlé and its digital channels that have set them up to be such long-term leaders in the index?

Georgia   Yeah, I think it's exactly what you were saying about being very good at a lot of aspects of corporate digital communication. So Nestlé are extremely strong in all areas. I think one thing that stands out is their Ask Nestlé FAQ Bank, which I think we've discussed on the podcast before, but it's just even more relevant in this context of AI search.

It's been going for many, many years but it's this constantly updated bank of frequently asked questions about the company using the language that people tend to use when they're searching for questions. So then it comes up in Google AI overviews for example. They also discuss historical issues there which I think not many companies do. But the fact that they are addressing things that have happened in the past on their website means that they continue to have a voice in the conversation even many, years later. So they have information about a boycott that happened in the 1970s, for example.

The common thing between Bosch and Nestlé is this constant iterative ceaseless improvements. They never stop. And I think that's very appropriate for online communications, particularly as it's changing so fast rapidly now and profoundly. They're constantly trying to do everything better iteratively, both companies.

Jonathan   Yeah, and I was going to say that with Ask Nestlé, I mean, it has been around for quite some time and it is now newly relevant. And anyone who hasn't looked at it in a while should do so. Especially the fact that it is a whole section of essentially FAQs with each topic being given its own page, which is remarkably relevant and helpful now in the AI search world because it means that page can be a link in Google AI mode or strategy is distinct and easily accessed. So it's a model worth exploring now more than ever.

Well, finally, before we have a short break, I wanted to ask you both what has surprised you about the moment we're in? And I'll give you one from me, which is that I've been surprised at just how quickly some companies have been willing and able to move on implementing AI search tools on their sites. Given that AI is still, generative AI still has some issues, it still sometimes gets things wrong, still even hallucinates from time to time.

And corporations are historically very conservative and risk averse when it comes to who controls their information. And so the fact that some companies have, I'm speaking specifically of Siemens and Aramco and Eni and Silicon Labs as the early adopters have gotten there so quickly, I've been surprised by. But of course, it's not like these companies are suddenly becoming risk takers. They've just had people working within them who have been able to see the contours of how do you do this. And of course a lot of it comes down to having proper guardrails in place such as not allowing the AI bot or agent to make things up or to improvise or even provide any information around price and share price sensitive, and that sort of thing. But Georgia, what have you been surprised by?

Georgia   I've been surprised by just the extent to which Reddit is now the biggest competitors in many corporate websites. And sometimes we do a lot of testing when you ask specific questions to Google, such as putting yourself in the mind of a job seeker and saying, is so-and-so company a good company to work for? And because that's a very specific question, there's often a Reddit thread with that exact phrasing, but it will be from 2014 and it's coming up as the top search result. And I think that's just something that's very tangible that's happening.

And it's something that's quite simple to address on your own channels by just having an FAQ bank of, is this a good company to work for? I think actually, no, having awards, if you've ever won an award that shows you're a good company, that also ranks very highly in AI search. So the importance of external links, awards, validations, but also very specific FAQs, such as about company benefits or just really flexible working policies, really answering specific questions that people have so that your website comes up as opposed to a Reddit thread from 2014.

Jonathan   Scott, what has surprised you over the last months of this pivotal moment that we're in?

Scott   Well, one of my biggest surprises was earlier this week I went to an investor relations event on the impact of AI on investor communications. There was a panel discussion and two of the panelists were sell-side analysts. Both these sell-side analysts were heavy users of AI. And one of them was pioneered the application of machine learning in 2018 in terms of measuring sentiments of senior executive financial communications. So they're heavy users of AI.

And they were asked in this AI age, what's the most important things that companies should do in order to effectively communicate with the investment community? And they both, without a beat, said, be authentic. That's the most important thing to be, because whether that is providing an unscripted CEO video or ensuring that your communications around financial performance is authentically consistent across all channels and over time, that's just increasingly important.

I was, I knew, we know, we knew already that job seekers are increasingly thirsty for authentic communications from companies. Same for customers, same for journalists always wanted, you know, always wanted authenticity. What I was personally surprised that actually even two senior sell-side analysts, one from UBS and one from Goldman Sachs, kind of, early adopters of AI, heavy users of AI, number one request, authenticity. I thought that was really interesting.

Let's take a short break and when we come back, we'll talk about the evolving role of social media in the AI age. So, we've talked a lot about how websites are changing or not changing as the case may be, but one of the themes in the snapshot report is that corporate social media is getting its second wind.

If you're new to Bowen Craggs, you might be wondering, Bowen who? We help corporate digital communicators and large companies measure and improve their website and social media communications, saving time and avoiding costly mistakes along the way. And we do it through benchmarking, visitor research and consultancy. Now, more than ever, digital communicators need to know the decisions that will boost rather than damage the company's reputation.

Bowen Craggs offers a lifeline backed by our constantly updated ranking of the world's best, the Corporate Digital Communications Index. To learn more about what we do and how we can help, check out our website. We're at bowencraggs.com

We're joined now, I'm delighted to say, by Caterina Sorenti, who is head of editorial at Bowen Craggs. And Caterina, you authored the Snapshot Report chapter on social media. What does corporate social media 2.0 look like in your opinion?

Caterina Sorenti   Well, first of all, it feels great to be a newly minted podcaster. So, thanks for having me. So we mentioned in the report that in serious times, people need some light relief. And it's a statement that I think rings true now and it will do for quite some time. And that's one of the great benefits of corporate social media as one of your key digital channels.

I think obviously your corporate website is kind of this hefty directory of company information. But your social channels are where your company messaging can really thrive and take on a life of its own. And we are truly seeing it come into fruition.

So I think we're seeing corporate social media teams take risks, try new channels, have some fun in loads of different ways. It might be finally getting a company TikTok account. I know there is general resistance or there is some resistance, not quite general. And it might have a reputation for being a platform that's jovial for 14 year olds but I do think it's such a great space to give your employees creative autonomy.

And it could also be things like modernising social media posts with company graphics that are bespoke, bold coloring, interesting fonts. All of which kind of grab attention and create a recognizable brand identity. Equally, I'd say experiment with short form on YouTube, Reels on Instagram. The possibilities are endless in this new age. And the great thing is that all of this is in the name of engaging stakeholders and building reputation.

Jonathan   That is a very good thing as far as I'm concerned. We've been saying at Bowen Craggs, and I'll bring Scott and Georgia into the conversation too, if you have things that you'd like to add on this, but for a while we've been saying at Bowen Craggs that Web and Social need to work more in tandem. Arguably we're seeing that, that is the trajectory, not necessarily a perfect trajectory, but the one that most companies seem to be on.

It seems to me that AI search is forcing that issue in the sense that to some extent I think the AI bots and crawlers don't entirely differentiate between what's on the website and what is on social media. What does the AI age mean for social media? Anyone want to take a stab at that?

Scott   So just a quick point for me on that is, and I think it's about that consistency point that the UBS and the Goldman Sachs sales-side analysts were saying, that just as human analysts get rather cross if the tone or the messaging is wildly different across channels, then that is going to, as you say, that's going to be exposed more readily through AI search.

So just ensure that on the one hand, it's really important to ensure that you do tailor the, to some extent, tone and formats from social channel to social channel. But at the same time, in terms of the core messaging, there does need to be consistent because an AI answer, it could be a Frankenstein's monster of what you've said on LinkedIn and what you said on your website, for example. Yeah, consistency is important more than before. Web and social definitely do need to work more closely together in general, but I think the rise of AI search is acting as a kind of catalyst.

Georgia   So, I don't think AI really necessarily cares about old channel distinctions. It pulls from websites, social feeds, Reddit threads, like Georgia said, YouTube comments, everything, and it blends it all into a single answer. So that means social content isn't just for engagement.

Caterina   It's become a fundamental part of what AI uses to understand what people think and what they're saying. And websites aren't just static hubs either. They have to be authoritative enough that AI actually trusts them. So, I guess a good summative statement is that AI collapses the gap between website and social because it treats all content as belonging to one single ecosystem.

Jonathan   Well, and there's a sense of contradiction that social media is becoming more creative and inventive, but also more relevant and serious. And of course, both of those things can be true at the same time. Perhaps that is some of the strongest evidence yet that we're entering a new epoch in the totality of corporate digital communications.

Another aspect of this is that things like YouTube videos and I think even TikTok, even shorts, know, all sorts of social media content are starting to appear embedded within AI search answers, for example, in AI overviews on Google. So are you all seeing that or am I imagining it?

Georgia   No, you're definitely not imagining it. I think Caterina has alluded to this, but the AI does read transcripts. So especially in YouTube videos, if we're counting YouTube as a social media platform, which I think we should because it has that community engagement aspects in the comments via YouTube. A long form explainer YouTube video that is packed with information about maybe the biggest product that you sell as a company, for example, is going to be really helpful in feeding AI search.

And making sure you have really detailed captions on Instagram, on LinkedIn, like doing all the things that you need to do for good AI visibility, such as transcripts, alt text, tagging, captions. There's a huge checklist of just good practice for visibility in this area.

Jonathan   Caterina, you wrote an article recently about AI optimisation in social media content. Do you have anything to add around what communicators should be doing if they want, or maybe some examples of companies that are doing good things in social media that will position them to have added visibility in AI search?

Caterina   Yeah, definitely. I do think that is an important disclaimer to be made here. And that is of course, web content is still going to index more highly than social media posts with regards to AI search visibility. The whole space is definitely in flux, but I do think that's an important thing to note.

But there are, as Georgia was saying, of course, so many ways to boost the visibility of social media posts in this AI search age. First of all, I would suggest to do what I've titled the keyword audit. So what are the most important, most searched terms relating to your company? When you've identified them, those really key words, phrases and messages that you're trying to transmit, rewrite your Instagram, your LinkedIn bios, YouTube out section, make sure those keywords are kind of disseminated everywhere because that creates like a unified front and it really boosts credibility.

Also, important hygiene factors like tagging employees, so thus positioning them as company experts, hashtags where appropriate, especially at the end of a long LinkedIn caption. Starting captions on Instagram and LinkedIn with pithy hooks that make people want to read on. And as Georgia said, AI can't see images, so please upload manual or text.

And one final thing to add to some of the points that Georgia made, reply to comments. It's so important to boost engagement and therefore run the chance of ranking higher. Facebook is a platform that tends to attract a lot of customers. They're usually quite angry, but that's a topic for another time. So reply to them, facilitate dialogue, get that key engagement, and it boosts visibility in general, not just AI wise, but also in the broader social media algorithm.

And there are loads of examples of companies doing it really well. Take a look at Bosch for their amazing LinkedIn captions. They're kind of like mini articles of thought leadership, full of hygiene factors. HSBC have a life at HSBC Instagram account with like really authentic employee behind the scenes videos. They're all included with closed captions and are actually accompanied by really strong captions too. So they're not just relying on visual media, but they're describing it. And L'Oreal are actually a really good example of utilising micro-influencers to access different segments of their broader audience.

Jonathan   So, Bowen Craggs has a fairly new metric in the corporate digital communications index which focuses on how well companies are using social media to get their corporate messages across. And as of right now, the runaway leader in that metric is Unilever and that is, I think, partly because they're doing some quite creative things. What is it that Unilever's doing that's so good?

Caterina   We held a club event earlier this year and we spoke to Christine Dobbin, Unilever's social media lead and expert. And she gave some really great insights into their social media strategy. She said that creativity is the last great competitive advantage. So really speaking to the idea of earning the right to show up in people's feeds in a genuine and trustworthy way.

Back to your question, how do they actually do it? I think visual innovation. They've crafted really clear Unilever social media identity by reinforcing brand colors, product imagery and bold headlines. Equally innovating for emerging audiences, especially younger investors. LinkedIn and Instagram feature excellent short form videos recapping like recent financial results or making a case for investment, showing strong product photography. So the social media team are really keeping their fingers on the pulse. And one final thing Christine mentioned was the fact that the social team A B test everything, whether that's opening hooks or video structures. So they get to remove the guesswork and craft content that really lands.

Jonathan   And it's interesting to me that a lot of what Unilever is doing seems to be aimed at younger investors and a recognition that younger retail investors perhaps or maybe even younger institutional investors want something that's a bit lighter and more emotive and more human. But Scott, this picks up on something you said earlier about how investors are gearing towards more authentic and content rather. Do you think that Unilever is an early adopter of that on their social channels?

Scott   100%, 100%. I used to be a journalist that covered investor relations closely and I dearly love the investor relations profession and everyone who rejoices in it. But I don't think is, it's kind of historically, it has been quite buttoned up as you say and it has been very, very focused on, primarily on catering to institutional investors' needs. The world is changing when it comes to what retail investors are looking for and the kind of the how they get information, how they want to consume information and how they want companies to present information. And I think Reddit, for example, is a great, there's a lot of kind of investment related chat on Reddit. Definitely, I think all investor relations teams, particularly those that have a large retail investor base, really kind of need to start kind of taking a leaf from a Unilever's book. And I think there was the old stereotype of private investors being retirees sitting in a condo in Miami Beach. And I think that the demographic makeup of the retail investment community is radically changing and as has been said is skewing ever younger.

Jonathan   Let's finish off with a roundabout. In which we each share one practical tip that hasn't been mentioned so far. A lot of communicators might feel like all this change is a lot to wade through. So let's give everyone one or two things that they can hold onto in terms of keeping it real.

I'll go first to avoid having the last word. And mine is simply a data point, which is that in Bowen Craggs surveys over the last few months where we have asked people, do you want AI on the corporate side? 76% of respondents said they do. That's up from 75 % just two or three months ago, which means most likely that number is only going to increase as people get more more accustomed to finding AI tools on corporate sites. Why I think that's useful is that if you're on the fence about whether to start putting in motion the beta testing and decisions that need to be made in order to make that possible or if you're experiencing resistance from within your organisation or leadership around funding that or giving the green light, then that's a very simple answer.

Georgia, what have you got that's useful?

Georgia   I'd say a practical tip is to very simply ask ChatGPT, ask Google, ask Perplexity, what are the most common questions that people are asking about your company? And then it will give you an answer. It's, I guess, I want to say maybe a bit mysterious about how it knows the answer. Anyway, but it will give you just a good sampling of what are some of the key questions that people want to know about your company. And then you can use that to guide content on your website because you know that that's what people want to know from you as a company.

Jonathan  Thank you. Catrina, what have you got that's useful for corporate digital communicators?

Caterina   Just a reminder that we've spoken a lot about the various different types of content that AI bots love to see on corporate websites. Just make sure that it's all super parseable, easy to access. Especially if it's an FAQ, if it's behind a click to expand tab, just that practical side of things is really important.

Jonathan   And Scott, any useful thoughts to round out this episode of the podcast?

Scott   Yeah, one, I think I've been playing with one tip. If you are a Mac user right now, I would immediately download ChatGPT Atlas, which is OpenAI's new browser, ChatGPT powered browser. Which is currently, as we record this, only available on Mac desktop, Apple desktop, operating system, but is coming soon to Windows and Android and iOS.

Because it is, I think that is a real kind of glimpse into the future of how people will access websites. Because if you go into, if you use ChatGPT Atlas as your browser, it looks like ChatGPT. But even if you click through to a website, a corporate website or any other website, you'll do so inside an AI search chatbot interface. And that raises lots of interesting questions about design issues in terms of how the people will be seeing and looking at your website in the context of the user interface of a chatbot. But it also kind of sparks lots of interesting ideas about what that kind of means in terms of how people will kind of interact with a corporate web presence alongside a chatbot.

I think if you have find a nephew or a niece, if you're a Windows user, find an Apple, an Apple user among your family and friends, steal their laptop and download it and have a play with it. That would be my recommendation.

Jonathan   Thank you all. This has been such a stimulating conversation. If we have to be entering a new epoch, I'm very happy to be going there with the three of you. That's it for this episode of Cutting Through. You can find show notes and links from this episode, including the 2025 Index Snapshot Report on our website, bowencraggs.com. If you liked what you heard today, please consider sharing this episode with a colleague or drop us a line. We'd love to hear from you. Cutting Through is available wherever you get your podcasts, including now, excitingly on YouTube. Until next time, thanks for listening.

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